Low Fat Raw Vegan vs Paleo.. The debate

Well folks, the debate took place on Friday the 15th April, our time, (down under), and I believe Kveta and I were one of the 1000 plus that listened in to the event live.

It was sort of entertaining, but I must admit it left me a little frustrated.

In his closing statement, Richard (the cooked flesh eater), claimed that Harley (the calorie counting vegan) was more debating against general omnivores than Paleo specific, but to be honest, Richard was doing exactly the same, debating more against veganism than Harleys more specific version of low fat, and raw.

Neither party really went overboard loosing their cool at any time, which admittedly surprised me with Richard, as when I briefly attempted a discussion with him over at his blog, his responses (and those of the bulk of the rest of his disciples) were generally quite primitive in nature, and consisted of a fair bit of name calling.

Richard gave a bit of an odd response to the question about whether he at all felt any moral qualms about his chosen diet, stating something about the rights for humans not coming from the fact that we can feel pain and suffer like animals, but rather that we can think. As if animals are themselves incapable of such, or as if every human is capable of such. Clearly neither is true.

He also very much showed his ignorance by stating his view that a vegan based lifestyle would destroy the earth and kill off animals by destroying their habitat. He clearly has neither an idea how much land is lost due to livestock farming, nor how much more environmentally sound an agriculture based predominantly around fruit tree growing has the potential to be. Perhaps he is comparing more a nomadic based lifestyle, of hunters and gatherers living in small tribes, something likely far afield from his own lifestyle choice.

The point was also made about Harley being too skinny in the eyes of a Paleo, but when Harley countered that his body weight and size was comparable to most other endurance athletes, Richard fully dismissed this, saying that his athletic prowess had nothing to do with the debate at hand.

Then there was that whole comparison he made of liver versus a bowl of fruit.. I mean yuck, who cares how much nutrient is in either (!).. one is dead and unappealingly disgusting, the other is vibrant, colourful and sweet..

Harley handled himself pretty well, but I do know that he has a tendency to exaggerate the truth at times. Not about his athletic fetes, I don't doubt those for a second, but he does state that he shares a flat with a paleo flat mate, and if it's the guy I believe it to be, then I don't think it's quite factual to be labeling him as paleo.

He also brought up the old adage about sticking a rabbit and a piece of fruit in with a baby and see which one it eats.. I used to like that one, but honestly, if you think about it, most omnivore parents would not give their babies living animals to kill themselves. They would kill and rip it open first. I would guess that an innocent baby would want to stick both items (the apple and the flesh) in their mouths, as that's how babies find out about the world.

Sure though, I will merit that the vast majority of humans don't have the heart to take a knife to a cows throat and kill it for lunch.

A little too much talk of triglycerines and the B12 critters (whatever they are) and their ilk for my liking, but I guess for many that's what they want to hear.

When Richard claimed that "the china study" had been debunked, Harley countered that, yes, by a 21 year old girl who he doubted the existence of. Personally I thought this a pretty weak response.. I mean, it's not that I myself have read the China study, nor have any great desire or intention to do so, nor have I seen the debunking response, but dismissing a debunk purely on the supposed age and gender of the debunker is a little unfair. (it may well be the debunk is weak by it's own merits, but if the author is genuinely a mystery, it may also be there was far more research put into it than Harley is aware).

And, this has little to do with his side of the debate, and is more about me wanting to be that small voice for fruitarianism, he also made that statement about not knowing anyone that eats just fruit (he knows Kveta and myself at least). But I guess he is entitled to believe that those of us that claim we do, are all liars, though I can't help but think still that Harley somehow feels threatened by the idea.. Also, I am quite curious to know where he get's his data from when he states so matter of factly that Ross Horne was not vegan.

Anyhow, Kudos to both parties for stepping up to the microphone and airing their view points. If you want to listen to it, here it is:

Listen to Harley vs Richard -

DurianRider vs the Animal Debate

Or if you want your own copy of the debate, then you can order one here:

http://realhealthdebate.com/sales/

hugs,
Mango

Harley Vs Richard.

Well folks, I've mentioned this briefly earlier, but without making too big a fuss of it, as at the time, no date had been fixed in stone..

But that's just changed! A time-slot has been allocated, and both parties seem keen to come head to head..



THE DEBATE

In the green corner we have Durianrider Harley, who is taking the low fat raw vegan glycogen calorie obsessed 80/10/10 stance. And in the dripping blood red corner, Neanderthal Richard Nikoley, the high fat cooked zombie flesh eating paleo stance. Both parties are no doubt already firmly entrenched in their ways, and I seriously doubt either would be at all open to change their stance, so the debate will not be about convincing themselves or each other, but hopefully should be of some benefit to others who have yet to fully decide their paths.

The debate can be viewed live (just visit realhealthdebate.com, watch the intro video, and sign up to receive a link to the event). It'll be structured, with limited times allocated to each party, with both stating their cases, and both having time following to ask and answer each other questions.

It'll take place at 6pm PST on the 14th April (which works out to midday on the 15th here on the east coast of Australia).

I was reading up on Richards Blog, and he seems pretty confident, as do most of the comments from his followers who admittedly, are not the sharpest tools in the box. No doubt similar confidence is being expressed over at 30 bananas a day..

If nothing else, I'm sure the debate will prove itself entertaining. Enjoy

Primal food (meat etc) vs. Predominantly fruit.

I've heard that durianrider Harley, will soon be having a face off with a guy named Richard Nikoley who runs the blog Free the Animal.

Richard is this guy who blogs about eating meat with the occasional attempt at justifying his actions through moral. I say occasional, as I have read recently that he plans shortly to do so. So maybe I exaggerate some. Anyhow, the latest I have heard is that the debate is to be hosted/moderated by Steven Prussack of "Raw Vegan Radio" (anyone have a web address or can confirm that?), probably within a couple of weeks from now.

I for one am curious to follow the debate, and see the final outcome.

After having myself recently also begun my own little debate with Richard and his crew, directly on his blog, I can safely say that the majority of his readers, and Richard himself appear to be unable to hold a rational debate without resorting to insult and profanity. Those commenting on his blog appear quite full of aggression and anger, which I guess is not surprising considering their diets.

Actually, I was a little disappointed that Richard would not man up to simple questions I asked him, preferring instead to skirt around issues rather like a politician does to avoid answering something directly that they are perhaps otherwise unable to tackle truthfully. Actually, my focus of questioning was mostly revolving around the ethics of animal eating, and because I'm a persistent bugger, I eventually got Richard to state his opinion that he is predominantly a selfish person who really doesn't care what happens to animals so long as they end up on his plate. For him it's all about taste.

Surprisingly, despite a few people throwing around the phrase that meat is superior nutrition, and many apparently believing that this was an unquestionable fact, not one person offered any real evidence to support that claim.

I found also that Richard and his crew appear to be using a different dictionary to most, they define words in very different ways to what I am used to. For them, peace is one sided, and if they are inflicting harm on another, they believe they can do so peacefully. Respect is another word which they have a very different understanding of, for them they brandish the word respect in combination of taking the life of another, for me this action is never respectful of that others life, but for them, they like to believe that it is. Actually, there is some contention there, as when pushed Richard seemed to air a degree of uncertainty in his view on that.

When I finally felt that I had had enough insults thrown at me, misquoted and false conclusions drawn about me, I withdrew. The whole debate took place over 3 days I think, and can be read here:

See the comments under his post

Interestingly, on leaving, quite a few people have added further comments that I sort of wanted to jump in and tackle, but I don't really see what the point would be, as I know that likely is that once more I would end up having my words twisted. To Richard, though, who responded to my statement that to the best of my knowledge morals cannot really be imposed on anyone, or any other other species or being. He came back and said:

It's a prima facie fact that morals are imposed upon people in abundance. Ever read a law book? What, you think, statutes are based in thin air, out of ass ideas? How about murder? Rape? Kidnapping and robbery?

I'd like to say that if you ever stumble upon this Richard, then please see that once more we have different dictionaries, because for me, morals and laws are 2 very different things. The law may say don't kill another human, but if it is truly in someones natures and desire to do so, they will find a way to do so and attempt to not get caught.

You ask me also directly, Richard, whether or not I am about persuasion, or if I would resort to legislation. I say forget the legislation. I would like for humans to have a global shift in conscience, and for laws to be unnecessary. I do not like governments or laws, and tolerate them merely because I must. If the road says 80 is the limit, and it's clear and safe to do 100, and I am guaranteed there are no cops, then I will do 100.

And to Sonagi, who threw in his final snide comments, I would add that once more you fail to report the truth and that I never derided anyone for disagreeing with me. I criticized people like yourself for not being able to hold a rational/logical debate and for twisting words and misquoting. I am quite at ease with outright disagreement. And my reference to Jorge was not about his English per se, at the time of writing I was not thinking at all about him not being a native english speaker, speaking several languages myself, I understand the difficulties of debating a language other than my own, and admire him for doing so. I was referring purely to his insistence that animal killers respect the animals they kill..

Anyhow.. I sort of felt that I wanted to get this out of my system. Too time consuming and a waste of energy really. I hope Harley enjoys himself, but I don't expect either party to change their view.

(I recall some years ago, when I used to run a forum, that I started a similar debate that focused on Fox hunting.. it went on for far too long, and got no where really. you can read it here: The Fox Hunting Debate).

100% Fruitarian. Fruit Only..

I have just heard on the grape vine that Harley is once more keenly telling the world that I am not 100% fruitarian, and that nobody is.. In fact, I tracked his recent statement down on the 30bananas forum..

Mango is a mate and he aint 100% fruitarian. Nobody is. Nobody has to be either.

Do I know mango would do better on more sweet fruits, drinking water and less fat? Heck yeah. Have I told the mangoster? Heck yeah.

Do the experiment Fred. Do one month mono banana and one month mono avocado and then one month 50/50 and PROVE it to yourself what you want in your diet more or less. :)

Food in our kitchen

Although I'm not a member or frequent visitor myself, there's surely a lot of good stuff being taught on that forum, and I have little doubt of that, and a lot of people are benefiting from it.. I would answer him directly on the forum, but if I were to join, (if they were to let me join!), I would probably be quickly banned, as I am not a follower of 801010, or of any of the pseudoscience behind eating raw, and would not be shy in stating my opinion..

Of course, I understand why he and other moderators regularly censor and ban opposing views there, especially bearing in mind that among other things, their's is a business with a clear intention of making a profit on the lack of knowledge of others.. No point in making anyone question their proposed knowledge.

Actually, I consider the banning somewhat humorous, especially as Harley himself goes and states his opinion on other forums that have the same "stick to our beliefs" policy.. What was that forum that banned you that I helped you re-register with Harley?

What I don't quite fully get though, is why Harley insists on stating that nobody does 100% fruit.. (I've written my own views on this previously here:

just fruit, no nuts, seed, roots or greens..

I guess one could equally say that Harley is not 100% raw as he takes B12 shots..

Me and a bag full of passion fruit - freshly harvested.

Whatever, but I'd like to address his points individually:

Mango is a mate and he aint 100% fruitarian.

Actually Harley since I broke off that last leaf of sweet-leaf I shared with Nick in December, I have not eaten anything but fruit.. Prior to that, since joining up with Kveta in 2006, meals with anything but fruit were virtually nonexistent.. Yes, I ate some home grown peas and beans in 2008, yes, I drank some of the juice of one coconut on my way between Sydney and our new home, yes I may have broken off a leaf or 2 and chewed on it.. But these were never really meals as such.. More like the old piece of straw the farmers chew on.. Exceptions were few and far between..

Prior to 2006 though, exceptions were more frequent.. I am busy writing my book where all will be revealed..

Nobody is. Nobody has to be either.

You cannot possibly know, that nobody is, but you are surely right that nobody has to be.. I'd never disagree with that one.. Nobody has to be vegetarian, nobody has to be vegan, nobody has to be raw, nobody has to be eating in any particular fixed way. My belief has for a long time been that fruit is a superior food, and as such, I have striven toward the goal of 100% fruit fruitarianism..

Are you trying to say that 100% fruit is ultimately not doable or not ideal, or could it perhaps be that you are a little envious that percentagely someone might eat more fruit than you do?? :) If you think it doable, then why try and discredit those that claim to do it? If you think it doable, and ultimately superior, then why aren't you eating 100% fruit yourself? I guess I don't fully understand your stance on this matter.. (actually, a recent question FreeLee posed concerning 100% fruit left me similarly confused)

Do I know mango would do better on more sweet fruits, drinking water and less fat? Heck yeah. Have I told the mangoster? Heck yeah.

Not knowledge Harley.. belief.. there is a difference.. I am claiming no real knowledge myself.. just belief.. whether or not others share my, or your, or someone elses beliefs is a personal individual choice.. I personally see it as folly to force drink when one is not thirsty, and equally so to eat when no real hunger is present.. I don't eat fat. I eat avocados.. you can stick with your pervert fats and sugar, I prefer to eat my fruit pure and unadulterated by science :) - If you eat 100% fruit, and live the kind of at ease lifestyle I do, then thirst is rarely if ever present, and when it is, an orange or 2 easily quench that thirst, so why would I even want to drink water? That's not to say that if you put in the exercise you do, that water might not serve it's purpose, just that our lives are currently quite different, and should I ever really feel desire for water, I would surely naturally drink it too..

Locally grown organic produce

Do one month mono banana and one month mono avocado and then one month 50/50 and PROVE it to yourself what you want in your diet more or less. :)

This is rather a ridiculous experiment.. I could personally not go a day eating just bananas or avocados.. both would sicken me.. Now perhaps a day, or month on just a particular juicy sweet fruit, or durian, I could handle.. but this all proves nothing.. just because I might desire to eat one fruit less than others, doesn't mean it is inferior, or should be restricted if and when the desire is there for it.. Compare this to me telling you you should try to eat just greens for a month, then just fruit, then 50/50.. this would not tell you anything you don't already know..

peace,
Mango.

Harley in Penang..

I've no idea what this says, but apparently Harley has been spreading the raw vegan message in Malaysia and has gotten some of his message across through this malaysian chinese newspaper:

Harley in Penang, Malaysia

Like I said, I've no idea really what the article says, but knowing Harley he's probably telling people to get off their butts, exercise more, cut out the flesh and eat 30 bananas a day..

- Any Chinese reading readers out there care to enlighten us? You can click the image to enlarge it..

Peace,
Mango.

Durianrider Harley's new blog

Durianrider Harley now has a blog too..

So you can keep updated on where he's at, what he's up to..

Just click here:

HTTP://DURIANRIDER.BLOGSPOT.COM

And here's a little treat for you..

Harley talking about cravings in Penang, Malaysia:

Peace,
Mango.

---

Previous Post - Fruitarian Interview - Manuel
Next Post - The Health Industry

---

Durianrider Harley's Youtube Videos

Hi all,

Just heard from Harley, AKA durianrider, who is in Thailand now, feasting on durian.. He's opened up a youtube account.. here's one of his first videos:

why they call him durianrider

Want to see more of him? then head over to youtube, and search for "durianrider".

Regards,
Mango.

---

Previous Post - Fruitarian Interview- Pomegranite
Next Post -

---

All posts about Harley

---

B12 on a raw vegan diet.. (mostly fruitarian)

Last year, our friend Harley was interviewed on TV (here in Australia), some show called, I think, "What's good for you"..

Now, Harley's this guy who is, to say the least.. ultra fit..

Kveta and I bumped into him purely by chance in Thailand,  in 2006.. He had biked up much of the distance from Singapore..

Harley's goal is to beat the world record for fastest time around Australia on his bike (that's a push bike/bicycle not a motor powered vehicle).. On pretty much mostly just fruit..

Anyhow, back to the TV thing.. for the show, he had some blood tested, and they found his B12 to be the lowest they had ever recorded..

Harley asked them what the healthy level of B12 for a raw vegan should be.. - the nutritionist had no answer, and was even surprised that he asked such a question.. Of course, none of this ever came to air on the show, as much of what was edited and shown was done so in order to favour the traditional omnivorous diet.. (sometimes he would be asked a question wearing one t-shirt, and answer it wearing another, showing just how heavily edited his interview was)..

He even offered the filming crew to follow him on a cycle tour across australia, and told them that he believed he could beat anybody who would dare to challenge him, any cyclist, with whatever level of B12 they might have.. (A challenge that I have no doubt he was up for!) - They never took him up on his offer..

OK, so clearly, I'm no scientist, nor narrow minded, brainwashed, symptom bashing doctor, far from it, but I can imagine, that a truly healthy person possibly does not need highly elevated levels of B12 in their blood..  I have heard that vitamin B12 is apparently used to break down proteins that make their way into the blood stream, which is common after eating flesh foods and dairy, and possibly the case with corrupted cooked foods too..

On a fruitarian or even mostly fruitarian diet, like Harley, protein is not eaten.. only amino acids, so B12 has nothing to break down in the blood, so is it possible that it may not even be needed at all?

Also according to wikipedia, B12 is used by the body during the process of rearranging hydrogen atoms in fats - Which is again in my view something to do with eating trans-fats - hydrogenated fats, raw vegans and fruitarians don't eat margarines or the like, so may not need B12 in their blood for the repair work..

Could it be, that the statistical values of the average population do nothing more than prove just show how sick the average population is?

I know I had my own blood analyzed a good 17 or 18 years ago.. My B12 was lower than the doctor had seen at the time, and she was concerned for me because of that.. Since then I have done nothing to attempt to correct that "anomaly", rather I have trusted more in my path, and that which I believed to be correct, appears indeed to be so..

Despite having no apparent B12 source, I have never suffered any of the classic B12 deficiency symptoms.. My mind and body function well still, with my ability to learn and climb trees ever present. I myself have clocked up over 7000 kms on my pushbike, living for one year on the road in Europe, (my bike is currently in Northern New South Wales, so I'm out of practise at the moment, but look forward to living somewhere where I can enjoy the pleasure of biking again..) .. Is it any wonder that I show so little faith in nutritional science and it's follies??

Well, if you'ld like to read more about Harley, then look him up with google: Harley Johnstone..



See also my post: B12 and Fruitarianism.

Hugs,
Mango.
PS See also: B12 and Fruitarianism

Blogged with Flock